Improvisation on Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7

[Stochelo75]

Hi everybody,

I'm having a hard time to find nice ideas to play on the diminished chord in the following progression:
Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7 | F7

It's a progression I met quite often in the last tunes I played (Someday my prince will come, One note samba, How insensitive) and... obviously I can play the arpeggios (minor 7, diminished then minor 7 again) but I would be really interested to see how you would improvise on the diminished chord.

I know it looks like a III-VI-II-V but I'm still struggling to make it sound nice!

Thanks in advance for your help!

Stochelo75

[setemupjoe]

I think you mean Dmi7 Dbdim7 Cmi7 F7

[Stochelo75]

Oups, sorry, I corrected the post, thanks!

[supermaxx]

A passing diminished chord like this can be treated (like any diminished chord) as a V7b9. In this case it's the V of Dm so basically an A7b9. So an A diminished scale will work or really anything you might play over a V7 chord.

I find that is the easiest way to think about the bIIIdim7 chord, but it's also acting like a V7/V chord or C7b9. That makes sense from a forward movement perspective because it's tonicizing the upcoming V (F7) chord.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Doublea A]

A passing diminished chord like this can be treated (like any diminished chord) as a V7b9. In this case it's the V of Dm so basically an A7b9. So an A diminished scale will work or really anything you might play over a V7 chord.

I find that is the easiest way to think about the bIIIdim7 chord, but it's also acting like a V7/V chord or C7b9. That makes sense from a forward movement perspective because it's tonicizing the upcoming V (F7) chord.

Hope that helps a bit.

I agree. I think of it as either an A7b9 or a C7b9 (they are essentially the same thing). Depending where i am on the neck of the guitar one of these chords/scales will jump out at me.

The notes : C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C
The chord : Db E G Bb


I hope that helps

[christianm77]

Question 1 - how long does that Dbdim7 stick around for?

Then decide whether or not to ignore it.

If you decide to engage with it, the best thing I've found is to treat it as a C7 chord and if you want, then raise the C to a C#. So play C mixolydian and raise the C to a C#.

I find it easier to get a melodic flow through the changes this way.

So

Dm7 C7 (C#) Cm7 F7

By the way this funny scale also expresses the A7b9 sound. Neat huh? So by changing c to c# you can move between C7 and A7b9.

Also the whole half scale works particularly well on this chord, more do than on a leading tone dominant.

[christianm77]

You can also play I VI II V on it. Sometimes the best option is just to cheat, the integrity of your melodic line and the time is the most important thing. These progressions have a strength to them which can be articulated clearly in a melodic line.

If you play without piano, it'll make no difference.

If you play gypsy jazz - as I guess you might from your username - no one can hear the pitches of the rhythm guitar chords distinctly anyway, so your sound will override the chords if they are doing their job right.

This stuff only becomes an issue when soloing over a pianist that isn't listening, bit you can still get away with a lot.

I would tend to always play the o7 on China boy though as it feels like such a feature of that tune and lasts for a while.

[vsaumarez]

Nothing wrong in using diminished arpeggios in my view. But I wouldn't use a diminished scale. That's just a taste thing. Ideas using Bb, Ab, and C# work over both the Dm7 and the Dbdim, so you wouldn't need to treat them separately.

[christianm77]

Nothing wrong in using diminished arpeggios in my view. But I wouldn't use a diminished scale. That's just a taste thing. Ideas using Bb, Ab, and C# work over both the Dm7 and the Dbdim, so you wouldn't need to treat them separately.

Sure, I think arpeggios and chord tones with chromatic linkages and enclosures would always be my first call, and you can do a huge amount with those simple resources.

But I think the C-C# thing (Barry Harris) is super elegant and I won't shut up about it until everyone says they agree.

It's obvious really, we do this all the time for chords, but don't think of it for scales.

[Stochelo75]

Thanks a lot for your answers, I will give it a try with your ideas when I get home!

[Runepune]

I'm drawn towards the A7-feeling Then there's obviously the symmetrical Db whole-half scale, giving you 8 notes to play with. You have four dominant 7's to explore in there (A-C-Eb-Gb)

[ragman1]

Keep it simple. Dbo = A7b9, D harmonic minor.

[ragman1]

play C mixolydian and raise the C to a C#

That is D harmonic minor!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I haven't seen this mentioned...

Instead of C Mixo with C raised to C#:

C# D E F G A Bb (aka D harmonic minor)

what about C mixo with D lowered to Db:

C Db E F G A Bb (aka C Mix b9)

It's similar but I find the Dnat a bit of a clunker while the Cnat works better to my ear. It also fits better against the idea of either C7 or A7.

What does everybody think? Sounds like a Charlie Parker thing to me.

[vsaumarez]

I haven't seen this mentioned...

Instead of C Mixo with C raised to C#:

C# D E F G A Bb (aka D harmonic minor)

what about C mixo with D lowered to Db:

C Db E F G A Bb (aka C Mix b9)

It's similar but I find the Dnat a bit of a clunker while the Cnat works better to my ear. It also fits better against the idea of either C7 or A7.

What does everybody think? Sounds like a Charlie Parker thing to me.

Sounds great! Whatever sounds good to you is what matters. For me, it often boils down to individual notes rather than scale choices. I play two or even three different scales in one idea over one chord. Whether you see it that way, think of it as one hybrid scale, or just specific notes or degrees over certain chords, it's all the same thing. The more important thing for me is the musicality. Is what I play melodic and interesting? Does it grab my (and listeners) attention, and does it speak the jazz language?

[christianm77]

I haven't seen this mentioned...

Instead of C Mixo with C raised to C#:

C# D E F G A Bb (aka D harmonic minor)

what about C mixo with D lowered to Db:

C Db E F G A Bb (aka C Mix b9)

It's similar but I find the Dnat a bit of a clunker while the Cnat works better to my ear. It also fits better against the idea of either C7 or A7.

What does everybody think? Sounds like a Charlie Parker thing to me.

I will try this when I get the opportunity. I have to say I've never come across this scale in the music of Parker that I can think of.

But go analyse some Parker lines and tell me what you think.

As an improviser you are free to use whatever thing sounds good to you. If we all do the same thing that's boring.

Bear in mind that if you think of the scale as D harmonic minor you will run into problems because you will emphasise the wrong notes against the A7b9. That's why we do the C C# rigmarole.

(It's a bit like modes - the way lydian is not major etc - but don't tell Barry that lol - we are using mode VII on o7, mode V on 7b9. Different.)

Don't second guess. There is a reason for everything in the BH system - he's been thinking about it longer than any of us haha. :-)

[christianm77]

Here's yet another thing - using a minor ii-V (which overlaps with the Barry Harris thing)

Stella used to be

Dbo7 | % | Cm7 | F7 |

In the Real Book we have this lava lamp/space hopper/pet rock* jazz harmony

Em7b5 | A7b9 | Cm7 | F7 |

So where do you think this comes from?

And what scale fits both Em7b5 and A7b9?

Also, this opens more modern approaches. Well bell bottom Berklee shit anyway.

* yes I know Jim Hall and Stan Getz played the latter back in the day, but I embrace any opportunity to take the piss out the Real Book. Melodic Minor modes and all things '70s jazz education :-)

[christianm77]

Transcription of Jim Hall on Stella. Observe what he plays on the minor ii-V's

http://www.tc7string.com/wp-content/...tella-pdf..pdf

In each case he uses the practice I have described.

Take any solo from the 50s. I put it to you 9/10 this is what they will be playing. Check out some examples, and see if you can prove me wrong. Don't take my word for it.

Anyway back to Jim.

C#m7b5 F#7 - uses A7 scale with A# (one time with a D# - probably a neighbour tone to E, but I suppose you could say it's a Lydian Dominant with a raised A, which is a cool alternative to the basic thing.)

This would work for Bbo7 BTW... Jim plays Stella in G, so there's your bIIIo7.

Look really carefully at bar 29-30 and the G/G# stuff.

Bm7b5 E7b9 - uses what scale?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I will try this when I get the opportunity. I have to say I've never come across this scale in the music of Parker that I can think of.

But go analyse some Parker lines and tell me what you think.

I'm thinking of him using a Mixo (b9) scale over a dom7 chord. For example, Blues for Alice, the second half of the second measure (over A7) is C# Bb G G# | A

He uses that motif a lot.

[christianm77]

I'm thinking of him using a Mixo (b9) scale over a dom7 chord. For example, Blues for Alice, the second half of the second measure (over A7) is C# Bb G G# | A

He uses that motif a lot.

Cool, I'll look into that.

Did you check out the transcription? It's a really good example of how to use the approach I'm talking about. I'll post some more examples if anyone's interested.

[jordanklemons]

This is pretty much in line with what just about everyone else is saying... I have a couple of go to's for this chord depending on the exact situation/how I'm feeling.

I always like to think of things in triads to hear where the stronger resolution points (and rock solid for voice leading as well) sit. My usual go to for this would be an A major triad with an added b2 (Bb), where the Bb note behaves as a b2 and wants to pull back to the A (I tend to do this a lot if I want to highlight the A note... which we see get featured in the melody over this passing Dbº7 chord often (think Someday My Prince Will Come or My Romance).

Other times I like to focus on the C major triad and add the Db note, again behaving as the b2 wanting to resolve down to the C.

Both obviously are sort of just inversions of each other within the diminished sound and the arpeggios everyone else is referring to. But when it comes to just playing really nice, sweet, lyrical lines over that diminished chord (or in general) I just find triads offer a super poignant approach in that they kind of take us right to the core of things.

These two approaches could be put together to get more notes, or other shapes could be brought in that would eventually build up to larger and fuller scales.

But if I only get 1 or 2 notes, and I'm really looking to improvise melodies over something like that, that's generally where I start.

Often times, if we look at the melody over these chords over the old standards, it's usually very simple and basic stuff... took me a long time to figure out why I just couldn't find what I was looking for with the HW diminished scale approach.

EDIT: WH... not HW. "spelling" error hahaha

[christianm77]

This is pretty much in line with what just about everyone else is saying... I have a couple of go to's for this chord depending on the exact situation/how I'm feeling.

I always like to think of things in triads to hear where the stronger resolution points (and rock solid for voice leading as well) sit. My usual go to for this would be an A major triad with an added b2 (Bb), where the Bb note behaves as a b2 and wants to pull back to the A (I tend to do this a lot if I want to highlight the A note... which we see get featured in the melody over this passing Dbº7 chord often (think Someday My Prince Will Come or My Romance).

Yes, the A note on Dbo7 is also present in Stella by Starlight (original changes) and dozens of other standards.

But as a foaming Barry cultist, I would like to point out that your nice A (Bb) C# E tetrad is encapsulated in the Glorious Empire of C Dominant With The C Raised to a C#.

I like the C C# E G tetrad too. I often use these types of phrase to launch a secondary dominant type line. It's the sort of thing I find more handy than a full on scale, but more interesting than an arpeggio.

The common bebop device C C# E G A Bb C Bb A is kind of an extension of that.

Other times I like to focus on the C major triad and add the Db note, again behaving as the b2 wanting to resolve down to the C.

Both obviously are sort of just inversions of each other within the diminished sound and the arpeggios everyone else is referring to. But when it comes to just playing really nice, sweet, lyrical lines over that diminished chord (or in general) I just find triads offer a super poignant approach in that they kind of take us right to the core of things.

These two approaches could be put together to get more notes, or other shapes could be brought in that would eventually build up to larger and fuller scales.

But if I only get 1 or 2 notes, and I'm really looking to improvise melodies over something like that, that's generally where I start.

Often times, if we look at the melody over these chords over the old standards, it's usually very simple and basic stuff... took me a long time to figure out why I just couldn't find what I was looking for with the HW diminished scale approach.

Indeed. It's just diatonic melody over chromatic chords. Alter the tonality as much as required and no more.

[christianm77]

This last part is, to me, one of the nice things about the "C mixolydian b9" (from F harmonic major) note pool. If you want to, you can sound so "inside".

Melodically I find harmonic major problematic because of the aug 2nd. This scale would work best if descending from the b9, or ending an ascent on b9 and then descending. b9-3 sounds like balls haha. But - stick a #2/b3 in there as well, maybe?

E.g.

G A Bb C Db Eb Db C

Barry doesn't talk about this scale AFAIK. In terms of lines most if not all bebop examples of harmonic major could analysed as a minor V7 type scale resolving into major I. So it depends what analysis you find most useful.

The D harmonic minor also contains an aug 2, but we get around that by allowing free use of the C or C# to eliminate the augmented second leap. Again - look at the Jim Hall transcription.

[fep]

I had the same questions years back, fell in love with this recording, transcribed pieces of the solo - the first chorus if I remember correctly, and Metheny taught me a thing or two about soloing over the Dbdim7.

[christianm77]

That is D harmonic minor!

That's a bit like saying A locrian is Bb major. True after a fashion, but also not true. The notes are the same, the emphasis is different.

In the case of harmonic minor modes you do need to be a little careful about emphasis because unlike melodic minor mode not every note sounds good. As Big Daddy Love handles points out, you don't want to sit on that D on the C#dim7, whereas you would on a D minor.

Also both the C and C# are up for grabs so it's more like a mix of D harmonic minor and D natural minor anyway.

I kind of feel what I'm saying is terribly confusing, so I'll post up this video again which at least has some examples. What I play here works just as well over a diminished 7th resolving up a half step.

I'll do a clearer video tomorrow just on running dim7s. Although this video covers everything IIRC. Lot of info.